Curse

Azog · Jul 01, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by YouDigress

^^^

What the hell?

Azog, if you really despise this guide SO much and despise the creator SO much, then don't read it. It'll solve all your problems for you.

No, I won't let someone get away with plagiarizing (i.e. taking information from other places and taking credit for it).

It's just not in my nature.

Azog

Sha Noran · Jul 01, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

That's it buddy, Admin time. Nothing here is plagerized, and I'm tired of being accused as such.

Evilsod · Jul 01, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

My god i wish i'd continued to avoid this thread. Theres more ego in the OP than anything else.

'Sha's' Bunny Thumper build? Bullshit. Its THE bunny thumper with the odd skill changed so you can call it yours. Same goes for some of the others. Stop acting like you thought of them, just becuase you may have changed 1 skill.

Barrage is a crappy elite eh? Since you seem to like numbers so much (i may not be a huge fan of it in general PvE but the numbers don't agree) you need to use it and watch them fly. It gives almost as much damage as my ele can (definatly after she's running low on energy thanks to enchantment stripping). Consistant 40+ damage to all adjacent targets (with the vampiric mod too of course), ability to bring an interrupt? Yup, even though you might miss from using Barrage.

Never bring spirits? Fair enough.. never mind QZ or EW, it RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs everyone else up. FW? Sure whatever. Not every mob in the game has a ranger in it. Not every ranger in the game wants to be using Read the wind every 20 seconds. Not every ranger hates Barrage.

The 'Sha's JI Barrager'? Yeah well done... its the Barrage/Pet barrager build i've been and seen running (similar to anyway) for a while, with the pet taken out.

The trapper? Your just trying to argue that Trappers Focus is useful. If you think otherwise don't try and pass it off as your build. Anyone with half a brain cell can switch Mantra of Resolve out for Trappers Focus if they don't like Spike Trap, its still a standard trapping build.

Choking Gas interrupter? Oh please like hell that was your idea.

Whats wrong with Concussion Shot? Unless your a complete f*cking idiot you can see that Dazed is an extremely powerful PvE condition. It inflicts the condition that can practically end the life of Casters without been able to fire a complete a single spell. To think it needs to be put on par with Savage Shot in terms of energy is just dumb. If your just sore that you can't target with it and interrupt things thats your problem... Anet invented Broadhead Arrow for that (which is great for killing those pesky ele bosses

)

Your not telling people how a ranger could be played. Your telling them how you want them to play it. Half of the builds suck anyway. Any ranger who uses R/E for anything other than Conjure i'll hold you responsible for in that case. They're so useful when they bring in things like Meteor Shower and Firestorm.

Sha Noran · Jul 01, 2006, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I didn't invent the skills, that's just how I use them. If you want I'll change the f'in names, that's just how I do it. I thought people would look beyond the NAMES OF THE BUILDS and look at what they actually do. I swear to God I'm about to just delete this, I'm so tired of the flames.

As far as the R/E builds I SAID it wasn't the best way, but it's fun. Sorry for... having fun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

My god i wish i'd continued to avoid this thread.

Ditto.

Evilsod · Jul 01, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I didn't invent the skills, that's just how I use them. If you want I'll change the f'in names, that's just how I do it. I thought people would look beyond the NAMES OF THE BUILDS and look at what they actually do. I swear to God I'm about to just delete this, I'm so tired of the flames.

Perhaps you should start with the words 'Sha' before each and every build you quite obviously stole?

Sha Noran · Jul 01, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Right. I stole them.

Went ahead and removed my name from most of them to make it clear that I didn't invent them all, which wasn't the purpose behind putting my name there. I had my name there to make it clear that of the different variations on the build, that I was listing how I run it, in other words, to make it clear that this was my opinion. That didn't work either, so whatever.

patc15 · Jul 01, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

gosh u guys are giving sha a hard time
he said like a million times he didn't steal them and just put his name in the title and admitted they weren't his.
and why are u looking at the title more than the build anyway like someone mentioned.

JR · Jul 01, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

... says the guy who uses Apply then spreads it with Savage spam.

Not that I really want to step on too many PvE toes; but spreading poison with Apply and Savage inbetween normal attacks is BY FAR the most efficient way to spread it, bar using Quick Shot. Watch the Crip-Shot rangers used by decent guilds on observer mode, and you should see them doing this whenever they are in the main battle to pressure the other team.

It is SO much faster and more efficient. The garbage theory you came up disproving that is... well garbage. Poison Arrow is one of the worst ranger Elites going, learn to love Apply. Don't get me wrong, 10 months ago when I was a bit of a nub I used Apply Poison and Kindle on my ranger, and thought it was the bomb. I soon got over that. Poison becomes more and more effective as the mob size increases, so if you aren't running a build with optimal ability to spread it then why use Poison at all?

And Trappers Focus *IS* another waste of an Elite; Distortion trapping is the way forward, either that or Oath Shot and Whirling Defense.

Regards,
-JR

Epinephrine · Jul 01, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Wow, as a ranger player I have to say that your guide may have good info in it, but it also carries a ton of misinformation.

For example:

Ithas bow isn't un-modifyable, nor is it a bad bow. It's certainly not the choice for endgame damage dealing, but you get a free +5 AL if you have 10+ expertise, and can put a defensive grip on it if you want, making it a 10AL bow for trapping for example.

Ascalon bows are worth using, just read about which comes from which trader, or test. It's not random, each collector provides a certain type of bow, and resources like guildwiki or Hansoo's bow FAQ will solve any issue.

Worth mention perhaps as an alternate bow is the reward from the quest Blankets for the Settlers, it's a Longbow, 13-25 damage (req. 6 Marksmanship), Damage +10% (while in a stance), Received damage -2 (while in a stance) - the only bow with damage reduction, and again useful in builds in which you need this, at least worth bringing up for the builds that can make use of it; -2 damage is pretty handy in some cases.

Saying that Zealous is never worth it is the sheerest ignorance. Zealous in PvE is an amazing mod - even with no buffs to IAS, you can easily shoot an arrow per 2 seconds. That's an energy per 2 seconds. You sacrifice a pip, that's an energy per 3 seconds. Math thus tells us that after 3 arrows we have gained 3 energy, and lost 2 to the pip, for a net gain of 1 energy per 6 seconds, or a half pip. Add Dual shots, interrupts, Tiger's Fury/Lightning Reflexes, Quickshot, Barrage, Needling shot etc... Yeah, it's pretty handy.

I can't actually count the number of places I disagree with your assessments, based on solid facts and my in-game experiences; thanks for putting time into it, but your rejection of the corrections offered by the community makes me think deleting it is the best course - you argue against well known facts and tenets of rangering. Saying Barrage is a crappy skill is like saying "I have no idea what I'm talking about, ignore me!" out loud.

Your advice is just so bad on many issues. Recommending a Marksmanship Grip because it's like + damage a % of the time???? Have you looked at the numbers? It's horrible! I guess I really object to the gross generalizations and the misinformation most of all. Obviously there is room for opinion in a guide, that's the point, but you should present justification generally, your reasoning. Saying "Longbow is the best bow in PvE" is a poor statement. Best for what? Better than carrying bow switches? If I saw a ranger using a longbow for everything I'd know he was a poor player; he's choosing a deliberately sub-par weapon for many situations. You can do 20% more damage with a Flatbow/Shortbow for example, so using a longbow to initiate combat and swapping to a shortbow is a reasonable way to handle this.

Anyway, I'm not trying to flame, I'm trying to illustrate a few of the many points in the guide that are innacurate, wrong, or too laden with opinion. If you want to make it acceptable and useful, take the advice of those who know a great deal about the game and incorporate changes, otherwise as you said, deleting it is the best option.

XvArchonvX · Jul 01, 2006, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

And Trappers Focus *IS* another waste of an Elite; Distortion trapping is the way forward, either that or Oath Shot and Whirling Defense.

I don't think that either elite is a waste. There are benefits and shortcomings of both stragedies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I can't actually count the number of places I disagree with your assessments, based on solid facts and my in-game experiences; thanks for putting time into it, but your rejection of the corrections offered by the community makes me think deleting it is the best course - you argue against well known facts and tenets of rangering. Saying Barrage is a crappy skill is like saying "I have no idea what I'm talking about, ignore me!" out loud.

Jus because you disagree doesn't make Sha's opinions worthless. Opinions are as always still only opinions. For starting players it is generally a good idea to learn the facts and pick up on opinions from several experienced players. While many of those opinions may contradict, the realization of such contradictions will allow that player to look at those arguments in a new light. I don't see anything wrong with Sha posting his opinions in a guide because it is a guide, not a statistical reference. As long as the reader knows that he is only looking at the opinion of one person, they will be able to benefit from looking at aspects of rangers in a new light.

Epinephrine · Jul 01, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Jus because you disagree doesn't make Sha's opinions worthless. Opinions are as always still only opinions. For starting players it is generally a good idea to learn the facts and pick up on opinions from several experienced players. While many of those opinions may contradict, the realization of such contradictions will allow that player to look at those arguments in a new light. I don't see anything wrong with Sha posting his opinions in a guide because it is a guide, not a statistical reference. As long as the reader knows that he is only looking at the opinion of one person, they will be able to benefit from looking at aspects of rangers in a new light.

No, opinions can't necessarily be thrown out entirely, but not all opinions are equal, especially when they relate to quantifiables. Opinions can in fact be wrong; if my opinion is that longbows do better damage than shortbows for example that's simply wrong. It's an opinion about something based on misinformation or misconceptions, perhaps borrowing from real life, where the power of the longbow indeed was greater than most standard shortbows (we won't get into composites etc...). Some things stated by Sha may well be his opinions, but they ARE wrong (example - zealous bow not being worth using because of the low rate of fire; proof of usefulness, crunch numbers, you come out ahead in energy while firing. Carry a bow switch if needed). Others opinions of his are based perhaps in a misunderstanding of the role (for example, talking about Vampiric weapons - the point isn't whether the health gain counters the health loss, it's a bonus 5 armour ignoring damage on every shot - that's worth using in builds even if you are losing health) and still others are legitimate opinions, in which alternate viewpoints might be supported.

Sometimes things could be fixed simply by changing the emphasis - I agree that one should always think about the area in question, the party composition and the skills being used by and against you before bringing a spirit along, but his phrasing is negative in the extreme, when spirits are in fact handy in many instances/areas.

Other things would be improved by explaining reasoning; still others are odd and inexplicable (Like advising against Edge of Exticntion in PvE ... obviously bringing it along to face the white mantle is a bad idea, but if your party is dying often enough for EoE to be a nuisance it's not the EoE that's a problem.). These come across as irrational judgements, probably based on party wipes due to bad playing and inappropriate laying of blame on the spirit rather than the party failure that lead to deaths in the first place. The failure to properly explain his opinions and the extreme nature of many of his biases leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and as it currently stands I would recommend against using this as a source.

Evilsod · Jul 01, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I don't think that either elite is a waste. There are benefits and shortcomings of both stragedies.

How is there? 75% to avoid an attack and not wasting your elite slot or 100% to not be interrupted by a normal attack, still take damage, still end up needing an Evasive stance to stop actual interrupts and wasting your elite slot. It says not easily interruptable, if it said 'not interruptable' then we'd be on to something.

Sha Noran · Jul 01, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Zealous is shit when compared to other bow strings available. Using a Zealous Bowstring is almost as bad us using a Zealous Hammer.

JR-: PvP is an entirely different environment that involves condition removal. In PvE once you put on the Poison, it most likely will not be removed, therefore making it a waste to sit there with Apply on when you could be dealing additional damage with something else.

As for Trapper's Focus, it's already been argued to death. Oath Shot has no place in a PvE environment, and neither does Distortion on a Ranger... if you're going to use Distortion, just use Mantra of Resolve.

Epinephrine: Thanks for pointing some of that out, but regardless the Ithas Bow is still shit. I would say the same about the -2 damage in a stance bow; the minor damage reduction is not worth the fact that the bow itself is not max damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

How is there? 75% to avoid an attack and not wasting your elite slot or 100% to not be interrupted by a normal attack, still take damage, still end up needing an Evasive stance to stop actual interrupts and wasting your elite slot. It says not easily interruptable, if it said 'not interruptable' then we'd be on to something.

You are still forced to "waste your elite" on Oath Shot then.

Finally, saying that Barrage is better than, say, Punishing Shot, is like saying that Whirling Axe is better than, say, Eviscerate. AoE isn't the "omgwtfpwn" only way to play. Learn what direct damage is and then learn how valuable it can be.

Call me a nub all you want, I'm sure it makes you feel better about yourselves. I'm not going to post xp number or hours played because numbers mean very little, but I know what I'm talking about, much better than some of you obviously. I'd appreciate it if we just discussed these topics rather than just talking shit about me.

Evilsod · Jul 01, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

You are still forced to "waste your elite" on Oath Shot then.

I was talking about Distortion. Even then you can recharge your traps and any spirits you might have instantly too. Which is alot better than the shitty 'no longer easily interruptable'.

Hang on numbers mean very little? Wasn't that the whole basis of your arguement with Snipeous over how to spread Poison.

Condition Removal in PvP... whoop de doo. Now meet this thing called Energy. The more conditions you apply, the more pressure the opponents get.

Sha Noran · Jul 01, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Condition Removal in PvP... whoop de doo. Now meet this thing called Energy. The more conditions you apply, the more pressure the opponents get.

Ok wait that time you just misunderstood me. I was saying that in PvP, Apply Poison is better because of condition removal, making reapplication much easier and more of a burdon.

Azog · Jul 02, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

That's it buddy, Admin time. Nothing here is plagerized, and I'm tired of being accused as such.

I really wish that you would quit threatening me with admin sanction. I haven't done anything here that you haven't done.

Azog

Azog · Jul 02, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I didn't invent the skills, that's just how I use them. If you want I'll change the f'in names, that's just how I do it. I thought people would look beyond the NAMES OF THE BUILDS and look at what they actually do. I swear to God I'm about to just delete this, I'm so tired of the flames.

As far as the R/E builds I SAID it wasn't the best way, but it's fun. Sorry for... having fun?

Ditto.

It's not just the name of the builds, it's the fact that you blatantly take credit for the builds.

Azog

Epinephrine · Jul 02, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Zealous is shit when compared to other bow strings available. Using a Zealous Bowstring is almost as bad us using a Zealous Hammer.

No, Zealous bows are great, with the right build. This is what I object to - you make a statement like "Zealous bows are shit" without any substantiation. Zealous+barrage = great. Zealous + Quick Shot = great. Zealous +IAS skills and interrupts = great.

Quote:

As for Trapper's Focus, it's already been argued to death. Oath Shot has no place in a PvE environment, and neither does Distortion on a Ranger... if you're going to use Distortion, just use Mantra of Resolve.

That's just wrong. Oath Shot is an incredible skill, PvE or PvP. Distortion makes sense not only because it can prevent interruption but it also prevents damage. That's a pretty important distinction. As well, look at the costs - Mantra of resolve you take the damage, pay a bunch of energy and don't get interrupted. Distortion you pay a smaller amount of energy not to take damage and not get interrupted. True, there are situations where resolve is better (particularly with mesmers around) and likely times when Trapper's Focus makes sense (again, mesmers with Cry of frustration come to mind) but Distortion is a solid skill for many classes - and paying less than anyone else to activate it is a nice bonus.

Quote:

Epinephrine: Thanks for pointing some of that out, but regardless the Ithas Bow is still shit. I would say the same about the -2 damage in a stance bow; the minor damage reduction is not worth the fact that the bow itself is not max damage.

No, many builds don't need max damage. Trappers for example. A non max bow, with a nice benefit like damage reduction or extra armour is worth using, especially if you need a bow for the build anyway (examples, my pet-choking gas build with no marksmanship - it deals pet damage while having full interrupting, and can cover the re-application of choking gas with disrupting lunge; handy for taking on a boss like rotscale. Any build using Oath Shot pretty much, or a build like a toucher with pin down, or in fact any build using a utility skill with a bow but delivering damage another way.) Saying non max bows are shit is ludicrous - bows can be used for purposes other than damage, like interruption, condition delivery, energy denial, recharge effects, energy gain and so on.

Quote:

Finally, saying that Barrage is better than, say, Punishing Shot, is like saying that Whirling Axe is better than, say, Eviscerate. AoE isn't the "omgwtfpwn" only way to play. Learn what direct damage is and then learn how valuable it can be.

I know I never said that. I maintain that barrage is a good skill, though for different purposes than punishing shot.

Quote:

Call me a nub all you want, I'm sure it makes you feel better about yourselves. I'm not going to post xp number or hours played because numbers mean very little, but I know what I'm talking about, much better than some of you obviously. I'd appreciate it if we just discussed these topics rather than just talking shit about me.

look, this isn't about ego. Some of what you said makes sense, some is questionable, some is wrong. Fix the stuff that's wrong, make justifications and present the alternate perspective on the questionable stuff and this could be a good resource. The fact is that misinformation is bad, and shouting out opinions like "X is shit" doesn't make you look any more credible.

Evilsod · Jul 02, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Ok wait that time you just misunderstood me. I was saying that in PvP, Apply Poison is better because of condition removal, making reapplication much easier and more of a burdon.

Looking at the sentence i took it from;

Quote:

JR-: PvP is an entirely different environment that involves condition removal. In PvE once you put on the Poison, it most likely will not be removed, therefore making it a waste to sit there with Apply on when you could be dealing additional damage with something else.

I see absolutely no mention of Apply Poison been better in PvP. I see you saying that in PvE it doesnt get removed (Yes it does, Empathetic Removal, Draw Conditions, 2 spring to mind from some of the common enemies). Yet if you run it at 12 WS you get 13(?) seconds of poison. So unless your attacking a single target (at which point 4 degen is still nice) then by the time you've finished spreading it around a bit it will have worn off the first targets. So your still wrong...

Quote:

No, many builds don't need max damage. Trappers for example. A non max bow, with a nice benefit like damage reduction or extra armour is worth using

That was a bad example. If your trapping, wheres your staff? With the exception of Oath Shot trapping possibly.

Quote:

As for Trapper's Focus, it's already been argued to death. Oath Shot has no place in a PvE environment, and neither does Distortion on a Ranger... if you're going to use Distortion, just use Mantra of Resolve.

Wait a minute. Oath Shot or Distortion trapping has no place in PvE. Yet your OP shows a ranger using Maelstrom (i think). If Oath Shot has no place in PvE, where does that belong?

Epinephrine · Jul 02, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

That was a bad example. If your trapping, wheres your staff? With the exception of Oath Shot trapping possibly.

Guilty as charged - I often use Oath Shot trapping.